S2 E6 - We Are Measuring The Wrong Things with Jeff Rose

Service is at the core of meaningful leadership, especially in education. Jeff Rose brings more than two decades of experience leading large, diverse school systems, with a consistent focus on improving student outcomes and building environments where every learner can thrive.

On Leadership Unscripted with Dr. Greg Steely, Superintendent Rose shares what it means to lead with responsibility and purpose. From shaping student leadership to guiding educators and systems, he reflects on how service-driven leadership influences culture, strengthens schools, and prepares students for life beyond the classroom. The conversation also explores how conviction and collaboration work together to create lasting impact.

For leaders committed to developing people and shaping the future through education, this episode offers a grounded perspective on leadership rooted in service.

Leadership Unscripted is brought to you by Growing Leaders a program of the Maxwell Leadership Foundation. Learn more about Growing Leaders at Growingleaders.com and Maxwell Leadership Foundation by Visiting Maxwellleadership.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Kind of your thoughts a little bit. Your host, Greg Steele. You already did that. Welcome to Leadership Unscripted. That's one of the better ones I've heard. That's really good. Today on Leadership Unscripted, I'm joined by Superintendent of Norfolk Public Schools, Jeff Rose. Jeff is a nationally respected student-centered education leader with over 27 years of experience leading large, diverse school systems and advancing district improvement at the local, state, and national levels. Having served as superintendent in three districts across Georgia, Oregon, and now Virginia, he brings a proven record of improving student outcomes, closing achievement gaps, strengthening graduation rates, and stewarding complex billion-dollar, not million-dollar, billion-dollar budgets with integrity and transparency. On top of that, Jeff has become a great friend. He's helped us here at Growing Leaders during a transition period for him. We couldn't be more excited about his new uh position and employment. Jeff, my friend, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Thank you. It's great to see you, Greg, and uh I'm thrilled to be here. And um, as you know, I mean, I've had the pleasure of not just, you know, getting to know you, but also getting to know the organization that you lead. And as uh you know, and I hope other people can hear too, is I'm just a big fan of the work. And I think that you're doing stellar things and have incredible goals ahead of you. So I'm rooting you on. Thank you, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Well, we feel the same about you, and we think Norfolk got a steal. And uh Norfolk County's got a great leader who's gonna take them to new heights, and so we're excited for uh we talked a little bit about the build you have to do there, right? Uh, but it's but it's good. You like a challenge. Um, all right, let's get into some questions today, man. Let's let our audience hear from you and and how uh in this space of education and leadership. Um, let's talk a little bit about when you think about student leadership, Jeff, what does that really look like in your schools today? And I know you're newer now and you may have to take on some other schools, but give us, I think it'll be good for the audience to hear from a guy who's just starting a new position in a in a in an area that that needs some leadership. Um, what is student leadership going to look like for you uh where you're at?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah, I I I I I want to be extremely honest that there's so much about uh the intricacies of our systems and our schools that I don't know. I I know less than I actually know, right? And so I'm I'm right now integrated into this hundred-day plan and phase, which um just creates this really important steep learning curve for me. So as it relates to specifically what we're doing in Norfolk in our schools around leadership, there I've only had glimpses. Yeah. Um, so in a comprehensive sense, I can't answer that well. Um I I can tell you this that, and I know we're gonna get into this, when we think about students and supporting students, it's very easy for us to focus on what we would assume and know, which is you know, reading, writing, like in our day we call it arithmetic, right? Right, but now it's you know complex mathematics and variety of other skills that we're trying to produce. But in the meantime, um those, while those are important, there's much more that we should be learning and exposed to in schools. And sometimes there aren't there aren't necessarily programs for that, but we talk about our students need to be critical thinkers, uh, in this case, leaders, and what does that actually look like, especially as it relates to how are we preparing kids for a world that's very different than what we kind of graduated into, right? That that quote of repairing students for their future, not our past. And so I think this uh responsibility of supporting students as it relates to leadership skills and attributes um is really important and sometimes more complex than we seem to think. Um, in some ways, it's easier for us to answer literacy questions than leadership questions.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, that's so good. Why why do you think that's the case? Because I hear that a lot. You know, you're not the only person that says that. And there's a lot of places that in education that leadership's not even talked about, right? Not not only is literacy talked about more, leadership's not even talked about. Why, why do you think we're bent in that direction? And have we all you've been doing this 27 years. Have we always been bent in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

I I think we have always been bent in that direction. I think to to be quite honest, I think the reason is that's because that was we're held accountable to. So we are held accountable, right, to um a lot of things, right? You can we you can talk about the fiduciary responsibilities. The school district tends to be audited more than any other organization that you can imagine. And so, but there are when it relates to results. When is the last time that we looked at um a report card of a school as it relates to producing leaders? That doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

There's an algorithm state by state that usually is related to things such as, you know, your literacy scores, your growth from one year to the next, um, your graduation rates, your college growing rates, those are all important data points that we are held accountable to, and then we are sometimes graded upon. And, you know, people tend to judge the schools accordingly. And yet, there are so many things that you and I would both agree are even more important than those, but we are not held accountable to them. And so the dilemma is the system, which is really all the things we're held accountable to, they're they're hard to deliver. Yeah. So therefore, that's what we gravitate towards. So it it tends to be really, really challenging, I think, for us to prioritize something for which we almost have to then deprioritize other things that we are accountable for.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

That's good. I can remember, Jeff. Do you remember? And I don't know if they do this anymore. I don't think I've seen it on my kids' report cards, but I'll be very transparent with you. The report cards sometimes don't make it up to my level. They usually stop at the level below me, which is my wife in terms of looking at grades, right? I uh and um but remember back in the day, I remember my report cards had the ESN on there when it came to you know conduct. You were either excellent, satisfactory, satisfactory, or needs improvement. Yes. Um, you know me well enough to know that I probably had a lot of ends. I had a lot of ends. And boy, my parents were fired up about those ends, man. That was a no, but but we we did we did grade that back in the day, right? That was a big deal. Like you would look at that and get whatever that circle was. I don't think we I I don't even know if they're on report cards anymore, that type of level of of grading of attitude.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

You know, it really depends on the system. Uh there are often schools and and and districts that will create opportunities for comments, right? Um, attendance. There are certain things that are reported, but once again, it's not necessarily what gets printed in the paper. Yeah. It's not necessarily, you know, what is identified, you know, on Zillow for which you know parents shop for school zone. So yeah. And and therefore, right, what gets measured and what gets reported gets prioritized, which doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing. The front. And you're right. Those those Ns, I mean, I remember them as well. And it it's funny that the the teachers would be giving feedback, very subjective, yeah, right? Feedback on look, you know, Greg in class, um talks too much. Really chatty, right? Uh you can't get this kid to shut up. So, right, I no matter what I do, I put his name on the board, I put checks after it, and it doesn't seem to really get home for him. He just continues, I'm giving this kid an N.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Right. And so that was the system. Now, the question we would ask is did that produce leaders? Right. Now, in your case, it did maybe. I don't know. I mean, you're a leader, but was it that? You know, so once again, how do you get your hand around what leadership is? How do you identify it? And then most importantly, how do you learn to prioritize it in this very complicated system for which we're accountable to things that are important, but once again, maybe not the most important.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, it's so it I think I think the superintendent's job has become harder and more complex than it ever has because there is there is this groundswell from from below pushing leadership and character development and values into schools, right? It's parents and organizations saying, we got to have more of this because the cell phones and YouTube and you know, they're not getting it. But like you said, I'm being really held accountable at the end of the day on what the mass scores are and you know what the readings can my can my district read? And um it it is a tough, tough balance for you guys, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

It is, and you know what's funny is that now character development leadership, um helping students cope is clearly the most important thing. If we look at the data, we look at issues of uh depression rates, yeah, anxiety, um uh uh amongst young people up through their mid-20s, right? We have seen numbers skyrocket, right? Uh, and we should all be extremely concerned. So we are all concerned. And then of course, and there's this political mess around this concept of people saying, well, whose job is it to teach, you know, yeah, issues of leadership and morality and making right choices, and then people to think, well, what is right anyway? And who gets to define that? And it's gotten so messy and so um polarizing and political. Sometimes when a system wants to do the right thing, well, then they're kind of ripped apart because we're saying, well, wait a minute, that's not the school's job. Yep. Okay, well, that's not the school's job. Of course, it's the family's job. Yeah, it's all of our jobs.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

So we maybe we should be having this conversation together. I agree. As it relates to what do we want to produce, how do we want to guide our students, which includes math and reading and a variety of academic skills, but more importantly, remember we're not trying to train kids to be good students. This is my opinion. I think we're we're we're not trying to train them to be good in school. We're trying them, we're training them, supporting them so that they can navigate a very complex world when they leave school. Yes. Right? So sometimes that gets lost.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

You're right. You're 100% right. All right. Um, I know you're just getting started in in your new job, but could you could you name some of the most important leadership skills you want your students to leave Norfolk public school system with when they graduate? These skip, these are important skills you feel like um for you guys.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

You know, I I'm just gonna I'll just focus on one because it it's very recent. It's this just just just happened. Yesterday, um, we have this organization um you know, round here called uh MIAC. And basically it's a series of uh universities. Um it's a D1 programs that, you know, and these are you know African-American um colleges and universities, um, HBCUs, and I was at this event and thousands of students were there, and it's basically, you know, they're uh you know, it's a college event where they're looking at different schools, right? It's a college fair. And it was interesting. I I told the students that my hope for all of our students would be that when they graduate, when they graduate, they have to graduate.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Or graduate, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

They they have choices, right? So they would be able to choose whether they're going to college, they're going to the military, they're going to a particular um service of some kind or the world of work, but it's not a lack of skills choosing for them. But my point is that these choices don't fall in our laps. Yeah. Sometimes you have to work for them. Yeah. Right. And so somehow identifying the fact that for us to have choices, it this concept of grit and intentionality and work ethic are very important, or else these choices don't come. That's right. Right. And so these, you know, we've learned about, you know, through Duckworth, the importance of grit. But so it's it's grit, but then it's knowing what are the right choices. Yeah. Right. And, you know, how do you identify not just what's right for me, but maybe what's right in general? Because students are making lots of decisions every day, and many of them you and I would not consider to be the right choices that relates to sometimes issues of and even just basic morality.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Right. That's good, man. Um, along those lines, you know, when you're when you're talking about leadership skills, one of the things that is important for kids is confidence, right? Confidence to be a leader, right? Finding finding their voice, the right voice for them, not the voice they're being told to have or the voice they're hearing somebody suggest they have. What what do you think are some key things to helping students find the confidence in the in their voice as leaders?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah, so uh you you cut out, but I I think the last word you said was confidence, right? Yeah. And so here's one thing I think we need to focus on is for forever. Um students at this age, and we know this is a developmental issue, they will pay attention to their peers more than they will pay attention to us as adults. It's it has been the case for long generations. This is not a new issue. However, I will say that that's become very clouded because of, you know, this, right? And this social media and this fact that we're just sucked into this hours and hours a day, that this is now the medium on how we communicate and how we're influenced by peers, which don't necessarily mean that we're looking them in the eye. It doesn't even mean that we know them. Yeah. These peers that are worldwide posting, and that is now the influence that is impacting students. So what you and I knew as peer influences, it's kind of who we hung out with, yeah. Who we talked to, the friends that we made, which was always and always will be important. But now it's not just that, it's actually here and what they're looking at and what they're paying attention to. And I find that to be concerning. Um, and so with helping students understand that this is not reality. This is not relationship. That's right. Relationship is deeper and more important than what we see posted online in social media, and so helping kids navigate that is tricky because we didn't face that. Yeah. And yet we can see the implications of what's occurring.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

It's so good. I was talking to somebody the other day about technology and its grip on young, the younger generation. And, you know, we have we have kids that grew up, you know, they don't know a life without technology. Um, and I and I kind of uh was kind of equaling it a little bit to I remember when I got c we got cable TV in my house for the first time, right? So I had grown up as a young kid, I had what four channels, maybe five. TV went off at 10 o'clock, there was nothing on after the news, it was over.

unknown 16:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

But then we got cable TV, we had HBO, you know, we got and then ESPN. And so before you knew it, the television became the source of all your entertainment. You'd sit in front of that TV for hours and hours and hours. And and it was that whole thing too, kids are in front of the TV too much, right? And and we navigated some away from that and got that back under control. But this seems different to me because it's it's so it's mobile, right? The TV, I couldn't take the TV with me. I couldn't watch TV in my car. I couldn't watch TV somewhere else. It was in my house. And being able to influence and guard the influencers in that, it's become much harder because it's all mobile now.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, and hard it's harder for all of us, right? Adults too. Um, you know, because it's now connected to every aspect of our life, how we pay for things, how we find things. Um, every single thing is now going through so it's it's now very difficult to stop. Yeah. Right. Um, and so I mean, I know we need to continue to pay attention on, you know, limiting and making difficult decisions. And that's hard as a parent. I am a parent, and I think I probably have, you know, struggled in that way in terms of um sometimes nailing down what my kids can and can't do on their phones. And I probably should have outlawed more things earlier. Um, I mean, they're fine, but uh now what I know, I I probably wouldn't have let them on certain apps until they were a certain age. Because but nonetheless, we do need to limit those things. But in the meantime, it's helping helping our students and and kids make good choices, yeah, knowing that this is part. As opposed to trying to deny this on their behalf, because that's not going to happen. No, it's not a good idea. This will continue to ramp up, right? And what you know, what AI is doing right now, I mean, it's it's a tool if we try to deny it, good luck. So, how do we help choices amidst this complication? Right. Um, I think is the strategy, is the hope. It's just a matter of kind of how.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, I love that. All right, last question. Sure. Influence. You mentioned it. We mentioned how the phone has become so influential. People we don't even know or will never meet have become influential. But you you lead arguably the most influential people in a community, and that's our teachers and educators. I think I read a a study recently that said, you know, young people are spending uh more time or as much time with teachers as they are their parents. Like they're the they're the number two adult now in the life of a of a child, um, as opposed to, you know, it used to be different types of communities. But what do teachers and influencers, leaders, school leaders need to do to influence the ways students learn how to lead?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Uh that's I just want to commend you on that question. I um and I'm gonna do my it's just such a good question. Um, so here's let me give it a shot. You mentioned earlier that, you know, it's become, you know, to be a say, you mentioned superintendent has become complicated, harder than it used to be. And that's true. I think um just being everything has been harder, right? I mean, uh being a teacher is much, much harder now than it was 20 and 30 years ago. It's always been difficult and it's always been important. And our our teachers are critical elements in their lives, opportunities for them to influence lives. What can be more empowering and noble than that? Um I also don't think teachers, school systems can do this work alone. Yeah. I think it's too hard. I I I think it's too complicated. And I know I am now in Norfolk, Virginia, and what I see here as an example, and I've seen this other places too, where I've led, is that there are pillars to this community that need to be vested with us. So I for a teacher, I don't want them to feel alone. I want them to feel as though, and this this will come here in Norfolk too, as we kind of build our campaigns around a strategic plan. But the con the question is, so whose job is it to raise kids?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Is it uh families? Of course. Of course. They're I would say they're the number one influencers in the lives of students. Uh the number one teachers, obviously. But who else? I mean, is it the cities? Yes. I've I think it's their job. Is it our business community? I think it is. Yeah. Is it our faith-based institutions? Indeed. Right here. Is it our military personnel? Yes. I mean, so I think we need to understand that this is an all hands-on deck concept. And if we don't lean into it, we're either going to be, whether you like kids or not, you'll be paying for them or scared of them.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

That's right. Oh, that's such a good statement. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Such a good statement. So why don't we understand and realize that everyone has a role in this? Everyone has a responsibility. So as soon as we say, this is the North Star for our children in this place, everyone feels a part of that. Because I just don't think we can say to teachers, I know it's hard and complicated, it's getting harder. Just work harder. That's not that's not gonna work strategy, right? And so there's only so many. Notches one can roll up their sleeves.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And then to say work smarter, that's almost um an eye-rolling statement, too. Yeah. Yeah. It's we need to understand this is this has to be a comprehensive effort. And so, I mean, I know that'll be my effort here in Norfolk over the coming years, is to take these impressive, impressive blocks and bricks in this community and put them together with others in a way that just spreads the responsibility and wealth of being able to influence lives of our kids. So refreshing, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

That's such a refreshing concept because it takes us back to old school type of community when communities rallied around young people. You know, I I remember I would go from my parents' house to my friend's house. Rules weren't much different, buddy. There was as much accountability down at Miss Portwood's house as there were at my mom's house, man. It was the same level of accountability. Why? She was helping raise the youth, all of us, right? And what you're talking about is what communities need to grab hold on. Every adult needs to understand we have a responsibility to add value to kids to become better leaders.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I agree. And I think in some ways we that's the, you know, then I don't know any other entities that would disagree with that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I don't either.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Right. So if I'm meeting with one of the pillars I described, um, I met with a uh person yesterday who's in the leads kind of the uh an organization that supports the business community here. And I I know we were talking about this and we were all agreeing. Uh I think then it comes down to so what do you do? Right. So if the businesses are going to help, what do they do? How do we make that clear? Yeah. It can't be too complicated, but it has to be pragmatic and doable. What does the all the entities know how to support? As opposed to Jay, just support. Yeah. What does that mean? Yep. So I think that'll be that'll be the trick, not just for us, but other places, if we want to be as great as we say. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

That's good, man. Well, we can't wait to watch it happen in your in your area. It's gonna be fantastic. You're a great leader. All right, here we go. Rapid fire, just a couple of questions. Okay, that you don't know these ahead of time. All right. We didn't we didn't prep you on these things.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I didn't know the other ones. I I think we maybe uh they were sent, but I didn't pay attention to the thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Right, you did great. Um, number one. Um if you had 30 minutes to spend with any leader, dead or alive, who would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

I think that a huge leader that it was I'm influenced by is um is Abraham Lincoln. And I know that sounds like well, lots of people would say that. I would too. Yeah. Right. Because he's a man who was strategic in a very complex time, trying to accomplish something that many think, many thought at the time was not possible. Right. And he did. But he was a strategic leader in how he did it. He was not just passionate, yeah. He did not just pound the table and say, I believe in this. He maneuvered complex politics to get it done. And uh, I think that that is something I I I hope to be able to learn more from great people like that.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

So good, man. That's great. Um, question number two. So when you're when Jeff Rose is not leading uh a huge district in Virginia, and um when Jeff Rose is not being a phenomenal husband and father, uh, what what would we find Jeff Rose doing in his downtime? I know that doesn't exist right now, but when you have it, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, I uh a few things. Uh you're right. I don't have that right now. One, um, I I am an avid reader. I do like to read, not just for learning, but to for fun. Yep. Um, I do that. Um, I I have to be physically active, I have to exercise, or else I get crabby. My wife and kids will tell you that. Um, so that's important, part of my balance. Um, and I I also ride a motorcycle. So um I'm a fair weather rider, but it's something I do for for fun where I can just do it by myself. Um, and I don't think about anything because I'm focused on the task at hand. Yeah. So it's something that allows me to just turn off um and not focus on the things that usually are just you know swirling around and sometimes beating me up. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Now, when you say motorcycle, it is it a motorcycle or a a fast, one of those fast motorcycles.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah, that's a good question. It's right in between. They they the it's uh it's a zucchy v strong, but it's like a more of a sit-up, you know, it can be uh on road or off-road. I use street tires, so um, it's right in between. You've kind of seen I I have a cheap man's BMW, but you'll see BMWs kind of built like this.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Okay. All right. Last question. Um if I called each of your kids and I asked them this question, tell me why your dad's a great leader. What would they if they didn't hang up, what would they say?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Oh I love my I love my children, and I, you know, parenting is complex. Yeah, I have great kids. So I think that they would say this that um I I think that they know what's important to me. Yeah. So there's lots of different things one can lead, right? Um, I've chosen to lead something that, you know, I think about a lot because it's important to me. That is a noble pursuit. I I think that they wouldn't understand that I'm passionate uh about other people. And um I'm I I I'm proud that they would say that.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with them on that, getting to know you. You're definitely passionate about people and believe in people, which is a great thing about you and what's going to make you great where you're at. So, hey, buddy, thanks for taking the time, man. I know, I know you're packed, I know you're getting ready to take off on a trip, but thanks for making a few minutes for us and the audience. You added so much value today to people out there that are trying to navigate this same world you are in and adding value to students and leaders who will multiply that value to others. So thank you so, so much for being here, bud.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Well, look, I would, I, I, I would do this as often as needed, right? I I I I I'm like I said, I'm a I'm a fan. I really appreciate this concept of what you're digging into in your organization of how do we influence something that sometimes isn't even is measured, like leadership, but most of us would agree is just as and sometimes more important than similar things we tend to focus on. So uh more power to you and your team. Thank you, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

And thanks for all the help you gave us. We appreciate you. Thanks, man. All right, be well. All right, you too.